Curse

Shmutt · May 26, 2009, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Thanks for clearing that up draxynnic, everything you just said was what I was thinking about but didn't put in such a clear way.

...and I do know that my skill analysis didn't go that deep, there are way more factors that should be considered, eles enchantments being one of them. Sometimes I wounder what goes through their minds when they skillbalance, if they even care about all the profs.

draxynnic · May 27, 2009, 04:14 AM // 04:14

No problem.

Having read over my post again, there was one thing I was planning to mention as an aside but forgot to do so - that the closest thing the Ritualist has to an attunement is elite, non-maintainable, prevents use of other (item) skills, and generally isn't as effective as any of the non-elite attunements, let alone Elemental Attunement. However, forgetting to mention that doesn't really hurt the point I was trying to make, as it's basically just a 'to add insult to injury' comment.

On balancing - it's something I've lamented before I even knew about GW - there's a tendency in balancing to nerf the powerful stuff and buff the stuff that's almost competitive, but the things that are just too weak to consider using often drop below the radar and are forgotten by the balancers.

upier · May 27, 2009, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

snip

First of all - the whole ele vs ritu comparison is quite flawed.
What Channelling does is able to support Resto. To achieve that on a ele - you need to waste your secondary on going rit. You have damage and healing on one guy. By default.
That's not pretty to balance.

Second of all - by linking Channelling/Resto skills to Spawning, you are making them weaker. The reason why this works for an ele is because EVERY ele goes Energy Storage. No ritualist goes Spawning. So by linking skills to Spawn - players need to make their Resto and Chan skills weaker.

The problem is that we are dealing with a hybrid. What this means is that this a Chan guy will never be as good as an ele, and a Resto guy will never be as good as a monk. To achieve something good you need to combine both lines. But then you are dealing with a guy that has it all.
So you can't really do anything with Spawning in regard to Chan/Resto without making him weaker or making him overpowered.
And nobody wants spirits in PvP.

So seriously, the only thing I see working is a PvE-only Communing-spirit related buff. In PvP, you roll the guy that is the best at the job you want to do. In PvE , you play with the guy with the cutest outfits.

refer · May 27, 2009, 01:15 PM // 13:15

How did you even come up with this idea? It's so out of left field.

Shmutt · May 27, 2009, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Obviously that skillchange draxynnic suggested would require a buff to spawning power too. What this does is making Ritualists the primary way to use their skills, currently they're not. Nothing that a Rit does (with rit skills) can't be done better with another proffession, except few, very few builds. It aims at making ritualist the ritualist.

upier · May 27, 2009, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Splinter @ 14.
The reason why we don't run this on Razzy is because Razzy is dumb.
So is Livia - but she has unlimited energy.

angelsarc · May 27, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Since people are complaining about weapon spell running out of uses before the duration is up (and I didn't see this anywhere else in the thread), add one use per 4 ranks of Spawning Power for weapon spells. This might actually overpower some skills, though.

Spawning Power has a lot of non-elite skills in it, but they're all over the place in terms of functionality. There are damage spells, quite a lot of energy management skills (not necessarily limited to the Ritualist), healing spells, and various enchantments. I'd say Spawning Power was intended to be used for its active abilities, which mostly become passive once you cast them, but they're mostly superfluous given the existing Ritualist skills. As people have said before, Ritualist skills are good enough on their own that Spawning Power is unnecessary. Buffing Spawning Power skills to godly levels is not the way to go, but if they can be made more attractive than the Restoration or Channeling alternatives, Ritualist primaries might be more favored. I'm not sure how to go about changing the skills, but I saw some interesting suggestions above. It might be better to just parcel the skills out to their respective lines and just keep the more unique ones in Spawning Power while focusing on the passive bonus.

What I'd like to see for Spawning Power:

Quote:

For each rank of Spawning Power you have, creatures you create (or animate) will have 4% more Health and weapon and item spells you cast last 2% longer. Additionally, for every 4 ranks in Spawning Power, creatures you create (or animate) gain one level and weapon spells last one more hit. Some Ritualist skills, especially those related to Spirit creatures, become more effective with higher Spawning Power.

I'm not sure if I would rather have one more level for summoned creatures or just having one-fourth of your Spawning Power attribute added onto whatever summoning skill you use, be it a spirit or minion skill.

MithranArkanere · May 28, 2009, 02:42 AM // 02:42

I'll just add some kind of bonus to all skills that create, summon, animates or spawns something.

For example, Meteor shower says 'create' on its description, so it would be affected.
Same for deadly swarm.
Same for all weapon and item spells, that create items that appear in the player's hands.

draxynnic · May 28, 2009, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Second of all - by linking Channelling/Resto skills to Spawning, you are making them weaker. The reason why this works for an ele is because EVERY ele goes Energy Storage. No ritualist goes Spawning. So by linking skills to Spawn - players need to make their Resto and Chan skills weaker.

Except that the objective of the changes is to give Ritualists a reason to use their own primary. Plus, as I'd stated in my original post and Shmutt reinforced:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

It wouldn't be a complete solution to the SP problem, but it may well prove to be part of the solution.

Emphasis added. I never claimed that this was the be-all-and-end-all change, just something else to add to the proverbial melting pot.

As for making them weaker... look at the maths before making such assumptions. The proposed changes to Caretaker's Charge and Clamor of Souls are pure buffs (to, I point out, underused skills) - with nothing in SP, they'd be the same as they are now. Essence Strike with the change would only require a 6-point investment in Spawning Power to match the energy gain of a 14-channeling Essence Strike now. Sure, it'd mean dropping Resto from 12 to 11 before runes, but I don't know of any important breakpoints offhand that that will remove... and wouldn't it be a good thing for ritualists to actually, you know, invest something in their primary attribute?

spirit of defeat · May 28, 2009, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

I'll just add some kind of bonus to all skills that create, summon, animates or spawns something.

For example, Meteor shower says 'create' on its description, so it would be affected.
Same for deadly swarm.
Same for all weapon and item spells, that create items that appear in the player's hands.

That will be hard to say what is created. is a avatar created/summoned?
Depends on how you look at it, but almost every elemental spell is "created"
Quite hard to balance.

MithranArkanere · May 28, 2009, 03:51 PM // 15:51

It would be things that are not the player itself.

A Form turn the user into something, not creates something separate. A weapon is on his hands, bundles can be dropped, meteors, swarms... they are separate tangible stuff going around, not just 'cold', 'dust' or 'forces'. Things that are animate, alive or bigger than a fist, that can exist separately I mean.

spirit of defeat · May 28, 2009, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

It would be things that are not the player itself.

A Form turn the user into something, not creates something separate. A weapon is on his hands, bundles can be dropped, meteors, swarms... they are separate tangible stuff going around, not just 'cold', 'dust' or 'forces'. Things that are animate, alive or bigger than a fist, that can exist separately I mean.

Still sound tricky. Is flare included? what about Searing Flames? Wards are created to...
I don't know what the effect should be, but I smell /E abuse.

Joiry · May 28, 2009, 10:38 PM // 22:38

I agree with the posts that any spawning power change should really enhance the idea of the profession - ie interacting with the spirit world, be it through summoning spirits, weapon spells (presumably spirit energy focuses into weapons) or bundles (a foci that channels the relevant named spirit).

Looking over all the ideas, perhaps something along these lines?

Spawning Power - For every 4 points in spawning power, binding rituals, weapon spells, and item spells are cast at +1 of the governing attribute.

Eg, with Channeling 12 and SP 8, a rit would cast Splinter Weapon as if having Chan 14. However, spells like Spirit Rift, Ancestor's Rage, etc, would see no increase in casting level.

May be a bit overpowered. I thought maybe +1 per 5, but that doesn't seem worth it (might as well dump directly into the attribute and have it affect all that attributes skills).

I wonder how bad could it be abused? If Chan 12 + 1 + 3 and Sp 11 + 1. Would yield Chan of 19 for affected skills. Spinter Weapon could deal 321 more damage (divided amongst 3 or more foes) than with Chan 16. Tho, its fairly spammable, so maybe a crazy 2 man farm build for some areas?

Maybe cap it at 16 or 17 (ie the SP bonus would not let you go over this level).

On the skill side, it seems odd to me OoS is in Channeling. Seems like it should be in SP. Or perhaps a non-elite version in SP (6..12..14 energy gain, 20 sec recharge).

I've also found spirits to be like so much tissue in hardmode. Two things I can think of:

Make summon spirits spread the spirits out a bit more. Or, add a new SP skill called "Scatter Spirits" which can disperse your spirits in a wider area (eg if they're getting hit with AoE). Perhaps as a signet.

"Spirit of Exchange" (SP) - Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit (30 second lifespan). When the next spirit you control would die from damage, this spirit becomes that spirit with full health and remaining lifespan. Energy 5?, Recharge 20sec?

Expherious · May 28, 2009, 10:39 PM // 22:39

I think Mysticism needs a buff more then Spawning Power lolz

MithranArkanere · May 29, 2009, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit of defeat

Still sound tricky. Is flare included? what about Searing Flames? Wards are created to...
I don't know what the effect should be, but I smell /E abuse.

Fire is not solid. Wards are 'put'.

draxynnic · May 29, 2009, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit of defeat

I don't know what the effect should be, but I smell /E abuse.

It would be ironic to have all those E/Rts fuelling heals with Ether Renewal while Rt/Es drop the nukes...

The biggest snag I see with Mithran's idea is that I doubt the range of skills he has in mind actually have a type in the game - Meteor, for instance, probably doesn't have a 'summons a physical object' tag but is just another instantaneous AoE spell that causes knockdown and has a particular animation. Also, while it fits the Ritualist's summoning theme, it doesn't really fit the 'summoning from beyond the veil' theme. (Although one could argue that Ritualistic experience with things beyond the veil could be applied to physical summonings as long as the Ritualist takes the appropriate secondary profession.)

One possible resolution could be to apply the bonus to anything that creates a lasting zone on the battlefield - this includes wards and area of effect damage-over-time skills (including Meteor Shower). The justification could then be that the Ritualist is siphoning additional power from the Mists to support the effect. The simplest resolution could simply be to increase the duration of those effects by a value according to the Ritualist's Spawning Power.

...in fact, taking that concept, you could go further and apply a Spawning Power bonus to anything with a duration.

spirit of defeat · May 29, 2009, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Fire is not solid. Wards are 'put'.

spirits also aren't solid.....
and wards description says create, like a lot other ele spell's.
I still say it's to hard to make the line, what's effected and what's not.

MithranArkanere · May 30, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Actually, spirits are solid. Like demons, they are the 'solidification' of spiritual energy. Something like globs ectoplasm.

And what abut armor penetration for spells that deal elemental damage? No profession does that. And all that would be left is balancing the amount of armor penetration. 5% or 10% shouldn't be too much.

spirit of defeat · May 30, 2009, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Actually, spirits are solid. Like demons, they are the 'solidification' of spiritual energy. Something like globs ectoplasm.

That's how you look at it.

MithranArkanere · May 30, 2009, 06:24 PM // 18:24

No, that's how you hit them with a sword that deals PHYSICAL damage.